Klaus (South+North) vs. Andreloha (West+East)

Grand Conquest-Partie für 2 Spieler (Partnerschaftsspielregeln. 4-Personen-Spielbrett)

Re: Klaus (South+North) vs. Andreloha (West+East)

Postby Klaus » 21 Nov 2018, 22:16

Dear Andre,

Andreloha wrote:
Sorry that this affected your play. If you wish, we can take it back to before your last North turn?
Just let me know.
No, it's my loss. Mr. Benge has written the rules in English. It's the source and therefore decisive.

Andreloha wrote:If you prefer continue, West will first recapture your last move
West: C11 x E16.
No, Andre, according to the rules you can't do a recapture after my recapture. After my recapture you have to continue your turn and therefore you can't move the pieces of West, but the pieces of East. We spoke about this issue in our last match and we clarified it.
Back then I stated: "..... The "recapture rules" enable the opponent (!) to take the heat. The "recapture rules" were not made for the one who has a turn....." That's according to the rules.

Kind regards

Klaus
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Re: Klaus (South+North) vs. Andreloha (West+East)

Postby Andreloha » 22 Nov 2018, 03:47

Dear Klaus,

In the rules for partnership play with 4 players, it is allowed for a partner to make a recapture of a piece taken during his partner's turn.
In Partnership Play, the rules clearly says:
You may may use your partner's piece or vessel to make a recapture, or use his catapult to make a retaliatory shot against a piece that has just made a capture


It is not West turn, it is East playing, so West can recapture at any time, like North or South can do as well. What we discussed last time was different as we discussed if East could recapture beyond its 20 moves.

Kind Regards
Andre
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Re: Klaus (South+North) vs. Andreloha (West+East)

Postby Klaus » 22 Nov 2018, 14:39

Dear Andre,

the recapture is the right of the player who don't have the turn. Without such a right the defender would lose a lot of pieces because the opponent can use 20 action points and move several pieces a turn.
In the 4-player-rules book you find: "A “recapture” is a defensive retaliatory capture made during an opponent’s turn. If you capture or commandeer an opponent’s piece
or vessel, you must stop and allow that opponent to capture (“recapture”) on that space....." and
"After the recapture, you go on with the rest of your twenty moves......" There isn't a hint in the rules book that the one who has the turn could answer the recapture with another recapture.

Yes, Andre, according to the partnership play rules ,you "may use your partner's piece or vessel to make a recapture, or use his catapult to make a retaliatory shot against a piece that has just made a capture". In our case it's your turn (East) and I have the right to recapture and can use, according to this rule, not only pieces of North but also, if it's possible, "my partner's" pieces of South.
Andreloha wrote:In the rules for partnership play with 4 players, it is allowed for a partner to make a recapture of a piece taken during his partner's turn.

Sorry, I don't see such a proof in the rules book: "it is allowed for a partner to make a recapture of a piece taken during his partner's turn."
Andreloha wrote:..... What we discussed last time was different as we discussed if East could recapture beyond its 20 moves.

Yes, we discussed this additional aspect of consecutive recaptures: the exceeding of the allowed operating range (of pieces).

Kind Regards
Klaus
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Re: Klaus (South+North) vs. Andreloha (West+East)

Postby Andreloha » 22 Nov 2018, 23:59

Dear Klaus,

I am sorry but you are adding a restriction that is not written anywhere in the rules:

Again, what is written in full is this:

You may may use your partner's piece or vessel to make a recapture, or use his catapult to make a retaliatory shot against a piece that has just made a capture, but you may not consult him about that action.


No where does it says that it cannot happen during a partner's turn. If they would have wanted to add your restriction, they would have added it, but it is written nowhere. Even more, the fact that they add that you may not consult your partner for that action supports the fact that it can happen during a partner's turn and that is the only restriction they add.

I agree that Recapture is the right of the player who does not have a turn. In our case West is inactive, East is the active player and the partnership rules allows to use a partner piece for recapture. It is very clear for me. It is one of the advantages of partnership play, like using a partner boat/galleon on your turn, which means a boat can play 2 times in a full turn, a feature that you have used very well!

Kind Regards
Andre
Andreloha
 
Posts: 93
Joined: 06 Aug 2017, 17:47

Re: Klaus (South+North) vs. Andreloha (West+East)

Postby Klaus » 23 Nov 2018, 23:58

Dear Andre,

sometimes it isn't possible to avoid discussions about a crunchpoint. Before I started this website I had made efforts to minimize possible crunchpoints. I cast an eye at the rule books, the published boards and faulty translations so one would be able to play the games internationally. But rarely we have to speak about such an issue.

Andreloha wrote:I agree that Recapture is the right of the player who does not have a turn.

That's right! "Recapture is the right of the player who does not have a turn." You (East) have the turn! And what do you want to do? ...
Andreloha wrote:In our case West is inactive, East is the active player and the partnership rules allows to use a partner piece for recapture.
... A recapture! Your (East) camel (Ds) was captured by my elephant on space 16 and you want to do a recapture by your partner's (West) chariot on space 11.
You are able to apply this partnership rule only in case you don't have the turn!

Kind Regards

Klaus
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Re: Klaus (South+North) vs. Andreloha (West+East)

Postby Andreloha » 24 Nov 2018, 00:07

Dear Klaus,

You said:
A recapture! Your (East) camel (Ds) was captured by my elephant on space 16 and you want to do a recapture by your partner's (West) chariot on space 11. You are able to apply this partnership rule only in case you don't have the turn!


The bold part is not written anywhere in the rule book, it is your personal rule addition. Since West is not playing, he is allowed to do a recapture like North or South.

I guess we agree to disagree.

Kind Regards
Andre
Andreloha
 
Posts: 93
Joined: 06 Aug 2017, 17:47

Re: Klaus (South+North) vs. Andreloha (West+East)

Postby Klaus » 24 Nov 2018, 14:00

Dear Andre,

Andreloha wrote:Dear Klaus,
You said:
A recapture! Your (East) camel (Ds) was captured by my elephant on space 16 and you want to do a recapture by your partner's (West) chariot on space 11. You are able to apply this partnership rule only in case you don't have the turn!


The bold part is not written anywhere in the rule book, it is your personal rule addition.

No, it isn't my rule addition. It's a logical consequence of the fact, that you also stated: "the one who has the turn can't do a recapture!" So in our match you (=East) can't do recapture. You have the turn.
Andreloha wrote:Since West is not playing, he is allowed to do a recapture like North or South.
Why? Why is he able to do a recapture? It wasn't the piece of West which was captured. In this case your partner West can't do a recapture, too.

You have played that way with your friend at home. Capture, then recapture of the defender, then recapture of the attacker and so on in one turn although the allowed range limitations of the pieces was exceeded. You can do so according to a personal agreement at home. But this procedure is definitely wrong according to the Conquest rules.

Maybe one can find a proof in the puzzle book of Grand Conquest. There are examples of the partnership play. Recaptures are listed in brackets. But I don't see any consecutive brackets. And a recapture after a recapture ought to be listed as moves in consecutive brackets.

Kind Regards

Klaus
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Re: Klaus (South+North) vs. Andreloha (West+East)

Postby Andreloha » 24 Nov 2018, 15:48

Dear Klaus,

Andreloha wrote:
Since West is not playing, he is allowed to do a recapture like North or South.

Klaus wrote:
Why? Why is he able to do a recapture? It wasn't the piece of West which was captured. In this case your partner West can't do a recapture, too.


Because the rule says that in Partnership Play:

You may may use your partner's piece or vessel to make a recapture, or use his catapult to make a retaliatory shot against a piece that has just made a capture, but you may not consult him about that action.


Since it is not West turn, he is in recapture mode and can follow the rule to recapture a partner piece. If you do want West to recapture, then North or South cannot recapture either which is silly and against the rules.

We go in circle. You add restrictions to play which are not written in the rules.

Kind Regards
Andre
Andreloha
 
Posts: 93
Joined: 06 Aug 2017, 17:47

Re: Klaus (South+North) vs. Andreloha (West+East)

Postby Klaus » 26 Nov 2018, 13:36

Dear Andre,

everybody who interprets texts knows that you have to consider not only one sentence to comprehend the sense of a text but often the context, in this case the whole rule book.
The "recapture rule" is the right of the defender for sure. In this case you have the turn, you are the attacker. Therefore you can't claim this rule and for logical reasons (!) you can't refer to the cited sentence of the partnership rules to make a recapture with the help of your second set of pieces.
Have you taken a look at the Grand Conquest puzzle book to find proofs? I don't see that you responded to my arguments. We don't go in circle. You are insisting on an error.

Klaus
Special Grand Conquest characters you could deeply need on www.conquest-forum.de :

π building
Δ catapult shot
Ω takeover of an enemy camel or ship
x capture/sinking of a ship
Klaus
 
Posts: 343
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Re: Klaus (South+North) vs. Andreloha (West+East)

Postby Andreloha » 27 Nov 2018, 03:50

Dear Klaus,

I checked the Puzzle book Partnership play and there is no situation like ours.

Since you insist on your interpretation and I insist on mine, I suggest the following to get out of the stalemate.

I will invert the last 2 sets of moves:
After move 15, I will do :

S423 - 431 = 2
Then finish East turn with:
Ds355 x Ds16 = 3

Total = 20

Kind Regards
Andre
Andreloha
 
Posts: 93
Joined: 06 Aug 2017, 17:47

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